Matt Reeves on whether ‘The Penguin’ will return

(This story contains spoilers from The penguin end of season.)

The penguin may be over – for now – but Matt Reeves’ Batman Epic Crime Saga has just begun. Batman director and The Penguin executive producer has overseen a rare feat — making an acclaimed blockbuster movie that spawned an acclaimed hit TV series (one that already has plenty of serious Emmy buzz). Below, Reeves touches on it all: The penguin finale (including the one story beat that changed), how the show has influenced his upcoming Batman Part IICristin Milioti’s breakout Sofia Falcone, Colin Farrell’s total immersion in Oz Cobb and what’s next for the TV franchise.

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It’s clear that showrunner Lauren LeFranc did an excellent job with this show. Is there a creative choice she made that particularly surprised you along the way?

In the beginning I had conversations with Lauren and showed her parts of (Batman) and then talked about the ambition of what I wanted here. She left and said, “Let me dig into what I think I would do in that direction.” And she came back and beat the shape of the pilot. What I fell in love with immediately was this idea of ​​meeting this character, Victor (Rhenzy Feliz), who was in the absolute wrong place at the wrong time. And then Sofia’s entrance and the relationship between Oz and his mother (Deirdre O’Connell). When she talked about the shape of the season, the other thing that really got me was that I really wanted to direct it. I wasn’t able to do that, I was doing all the other things. But when you have that feeling as a creative person, when someone gives you a story, it’s very exciting. I told her that it was very important that it also fit with the next movie – that there should be a gang war that would lead to the penguin becoming the king.

So I wasn’t surprised, because that’s exactly what made me fall in love with Lauren’s pitch. The one thing was slightly different was (as to how) Vic died. In the initial pitch, she envisioned Vic protecting (Oz’s mother) Francis, and it had gone wrong. And in the fight between Sofia and Oz, that Sofia was able to manipulate things in such a way that she turned Oz against Vic. And it would be this tragic thing. I thought it sounded great. But as we got deeper and deeper and she wrote the scene, she had changed her view a little bit, but in a critical way, which I think made it even more powerful – an idea that was really terrible, but also deeply tragic, which was that Oz needed to kill Victor because he couldn’t bear that level of vulnerability.

Oz had kept him at bay and was using Vic as a pawn. It was all about his ambitions. But he had let this person get so close to him that he couldn’t stand that closeness, and it had to be revealed that it could make him weak, and being weak was impossible for him. So that’s what surprised me and it made the scene even more powerful.

I also talked to her about how Oz will never get enough of trying to achieve power and one thing in the movie that we cut out – where Oz clearly had these feelings for Selena and when he realized she wasn’t giving them back, tells her, “One day this city will be mine.” And he said it in a very disturbing way. Colin was incredible. The whole idea was that we, he was like, “then you wish you were with me, everything is transactional, if I can do this, you want me.” And the truth of the matter is that Oz never gets what he wants. So this is just the longest answer ever.

So speaking of never feeling full, now that HBO has seen the ratings for this, of course they want more. Does it make more sense now that everyone has seen the finale that there is one Penguin season two since he is now where do you want him for the next movie? Or does it make more sense to do a Sofia limited series, given what a breakout she’s been?

Everything is on the table. But ultimately we feel there are more stories to tell in this world. So me and Lauren and (producer Dylan Clark) and Colin are talking and we’re trying to figure out what it is, then it has to dig into this in a way that feels earned like it was. I was never interested in starting this thing saying, “We’re just going to do things with the penguin.” What can we do that feels fresh? This idea of ​​introducing Sophia was specifically about the way she existed in this patriarchal world, and in a way that surprisingly makes you start rooting for her, even though she’s the opposite of Oz. Then you realize, oh, they are both so messy. This whole world is messed up. And Cristin is so incredible. It was so personal to Lauren’s vision that it’s a very exciting perspective to dig further into (Sofia’s story). But where it will go, we don’t actually know yet. I’ve found that when you take on projects, they start to take on a life of their own. You discover certain things in them. We knew how Cristin realized the character was incredible as soon as the dailies started coming in.

Since you have finished the script and we now know that she will survive the season, can you say if Sofia will appear in Batman Part II?

I don’t want to go into that right now.

This is not another way of trying to ask the previous question, exactly. But I was wondering: When you saw the series dailies coming in, without being specific, did that change at all what you were planning to do with the film?

The film is very much a Batman film, so its focus is on Batman and Bruce. It very much takes Rob Pattinson through this next stage and how Rogues Gallery fits into it. So much of it was already in place when we got the dailies. But there are definitely certain ways in which it has affected it. It gave us ideas and we say, “Oh, we could do this.” But we’re still talking about the bigger picture and the future and what another season of The penguin can look like. You go through a process where you do something and have feelings for them and then you see it go out into the world and it’s no longer your baby. It belongs to the audience. Of course, seeing them connect to Sofia makes us think, “There’s more there.” Then again, I can’t tell you what it is. We don’t know yet. We’re just starting to find out.

Cristin has gotten so much attention and it’s deserved. Was there a specific scene in particular that made you realize, “Boy, we’ve got something special here?”

Right from the beginning. The scene when she was at lunch with Oz, when she whispers in his ear, and when she appears. It was evident the moment she walks in and she says, “I’ve been rehabilitated.”

Yes, when she delivers that line, with that look in her eyes, you’re immediately all-in with her character. You also mentioned that you’re talking to Colin about doing more, but when Colin told the press, “I’m never going to put that damn suit and that damn head back on,” what was your reaction when you saw that headline pop up on your phone?

Well, here’s the thing. I know Colin and I love him so much. So when I saw that, I knew exactly where it was coming from—which is the actual strain of putting that makeup on day after day, and then also his exploration of Oz, which is very dark. Colin is a truly beautiful, empathetic person. So living in the dark, and on top of that wearing all that latex day after day, I know as much as he loved it, it was also kind of hell. There were two sides to it. We talked about it and he says, “I know it didn’t come out quite right, it seemed so definitive.” But if there’s a compelling way to go back that really feels like it’s earned, I know Colin wants to do it because doing good work is all that matters to any of us .

Colin did things like wear a ski mask when he ran out of makeup to maintain the illusion on set. I never really thought of him as a kind of method actor. Was he also that tough when he worked with you?

You can ask him if he considers himself a Method actor, but I’d say he’s very instinctive. I didn’t see him outside of the makeup during the entire filming of Batman. So I knew Oz a lot better than Colin. Not that it wasn’t Colin down there. He was the lovely person. But he told me right from the beginning, he said, “Maybe always just call me Oz.” He was just trying to be in character. He was just preoccupied with that character all the time

You mentioned bringing in the Rogues Gallery and finding new ways to tell these stories. Does the split between Heath Ledger and Joaquin Phoenix make it difficult to do the Joker because he’s been iconic portrayed by two Oscar winners in the last several years? (Note: Barry Keoghan played the Joker in a deleted Batman scene).

Every time you want to approach any of these characters, you have to find a new way to do it. So that makes it incredibly scary. At the same time, this version of Penguin is a version of Penguin that no one had ever seen. The only way to do that is to feel like you’ve earned your place, because otherwise you’re just doing more and people say, “Well, we’ve seen that, so what do you have for us?” So how can it be the thing we love but also something we haven’t seen? That is always the challenge. So with a character like that, it had to be the bar.

Finally, I don’t know if games are even your jam, but there are quite a few popular Batman ones. Do you have a favorite?

I don’t know much about them. But I can tell you that when I was trying to figure out our version of Oz, I looked at the Telltale game (Batman: The Telltale Series), and there’s a certain kind of penguin in that story that I thought looked like Colin before the transformation. And there was another one I played when I was researching Batman, a VR game, Batman: Arkham VR. It had a version of Penguin that looked a bit like where we ended up – like Bob Hoskins in it The long Good Friday. It made me lean into this idea that he was a mid-level mobster. There’s a great scene in the VR game where you’re in a cell and the Joker is there, it’s really scary.

Read THR’s post-finale interviews with showrunner Lauren LeFranc and star Colin Farrell. The Penguin is now streaming all episodes on Max.